tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post2540851181098987261..comments2024-02-19T05:09:00.099-06:00Comments on Lutheran Confessions: Exposing "Exposing the ELCA"Clint Schneklothhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00707900080657719369noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-40554456537430904102017-06-14T08:46:19.379-05:002017-06-14T08:46:19.379-05:00Clint, thank you for this article. It's very h...Clint, thank you for this article. It's very helpful and you have laid out where the ELCA stands in a very clear way. I too have been a victim of his harassment and bullying via a comment I made to my bishop. I'm very proud of the quote he took from me and will forever stand by and preach it. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03632426535287366760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-1083488635964945712017-06-14T08:09:15.458-05:002017-06-14T08:09:15.458-05:00Clint, thank you for this article. It's very h...Clint, thank you for this article. It's very helpful and you have laid out where the ELCA stands in a very clear way. I too have been a victim of his harassment and bullying via a comment I made to my bishop. I'm very proud of the quote he took from me and will forever stand by and preach it. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03632426535287366760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-47070445290954276852016-12-03T23:58:49.970-06:002016-12-03T23:58:49.970-06:00Beth, I have attempted on a couple of occasions to...Beth, I have attempted on a couple of occasions to dialogue with Dan, but he simply responds with his standard lines. Clint is not bullying him one little bit. He is in point of fact being remarkably restrained.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07997411376084213445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-84770113135204118322016-12-03T22:39:51.366-06:002016-12-03T22:39:51.366-06:00Actually, Alan, the ELCA agrees with you completel...Actually, Alan, the ELCA agrees with you completely, that there is good evidence supporting the resurrection as an historical event. It's central to our faith, and we celebrate it every Sunday.Clint Schneklothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707900080657719369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-87606646394087622092016-12-03T22:38:18.857-06:002016-12-03T22:38:18.857-06:00The evidence supporting the historical Resurrectio...The evidence supporting the historical Resurrection is overwhelming. CONSIDER<br />1Corinthians 15; 3_8 was in fact_<br />All mainline scholars agree_<br />1Corinthians was written by Paul<br />Around 50 AD. Paul offers HUNDREDS<br />OF EYEWITNESS REPORTS OF THE RISEN<br />CHRIST GOING RIGHT BACK TO THE FIRST<br />EASTER SUNDAY.<br /><br />THE ELCA REJECTS THIS HARD EVIDENCEAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10234032250632833797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-60600864879349382092016-03-16T14:31:35.014-05:002016-03-16T14:31:35.014-05:00"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen, Götter selbst verg..."Mit der Dummheit kämpfen, Götter selbst vergebens." ;)<br /><br />Many years ago, I once engaged in a similar bit of sparring with someone from the infamous Westboro Baptist Church; we initially engaged publicly on some forum, then went to private email exchanges. Each accused the other of downplaying/ignoring certain scriptural passages while emphasizing others, as driven by ideological orientation, etc. (though they were spectacularly unconscious of how this works - which is to say, it was clear this person never really questioned or examined how they came to hold their beliefs in the first place). Ultimately I suppose it was an exercise in futility, as typically, one never gets to find out whether their argumentation finds any purchase in the mind of their opponent or not. But regardless of how the encounter affected this person, I confess it was (self-indulgently) very gratifying to challenge them, to not just let the offensive falsehoods pass undisputed. Overall, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we can even argue that it's a "healthy" way to exorcise some frustration, or at least make a positive, public stand. Of course, there are good & not-so-good ways of going about this, so if/when one feels they must indulge, I humbly suggest considering the following two precepts:<br /><br />1). Stay conscious! The temptation to lower the level of one's discourse (say, to the "God hates fags" stratum, etc.) is very seductive and must be vigilantly resisted. Keeping your awareness raised is essential - if one truly is (perhaps especially if so) on the "right side" of some issue, we only undermine ourselves by yielding to afflictive emotions and/or baser instincts. Keeping your head also makes it much easier to find the humor in such encounters; this is very beneficial on a number of levels.<br /><br />2). Don't make it a habit. The thing that intrigued me about this post is that there was at least some reflection, some reasoned assessment of how to go about mounting a challenge to Dan Skogen's very pointed provocations (which suggests it's not a reflexive habit). I agree such bullies DO need to experience other kids who will stand up to them on the playground from time to time. Even so, in the online Lebenswelt, the delineations between "playground defender" and bully can get tricky, with _frequency_ of engagements being a major determinate. If our forays into rhetorical dueling are rare (and we follow precept #1 when we do indulge), the less likely we are to veer into bully-ish territory.<br /><br />Put another way, we've all seen (often the best intentioned) folks who've somehow transitioned into a constant "defender" mode, unintentionally coming to resemble the very demagogues they contend against. This is also where the "don't feed the trolls" exhortation comes in. As much as how we do it, knowing where, when--and how often--to rattle a provocateur's cage is half the battle.<br /><br />For most of us, abstaining completely from polemical engagements (esp in self-defense) is unrealistic, if not impossible. But when we find ourselves embroiled in it - in spontaneous defense, or by conscious choice - we are far more effective in proportion to how mindful we are, and in taking care that our motivation is the exact opposite of that of our adversary.Wahrheitssuchenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16118030685666655264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-85257513901670382142016-01-21T09:43:23.138-06:002016-01-21T09:43:23.138-06:00I think Beth's basic mistake is confusing a pe...I think Beth's basic mistake is confusing a person's well-defined stand for bullying. Self-definition is not coercion.Clint Schneklothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707900080657719369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-57813379274779059772016-01-09T22:27:32.996-06:002016-01-09T22:27:32.996-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Patricia Mikkelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16220264207594248123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-44217494028073242992016-01-09T22:24:19.035-06:002016-01-09T22:24:19.035-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Patricia Mikkelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16220264207594248123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-40788365405334103882016-01-07T22:33:03.834-06:002016-01-07T22:33:03.834-06:00You won't allow this post to stay on your blog...You won't allow this post to stay on your blog, but you Clint Schneckloth are describing yourself above... a troll and the biggest bully I have ever experienced. I hope someday people will see you for who you really are.Beth Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08777928352273343549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-63848160725594426402015-12-30T10:40:11.890-06:002015-12-30T10:40:11.890-06:00Interesting. Classic troll work. Engaging with him...Interesting. Classic troll work. Engaging with him as you did is what I call 'poking the beast'. We poke at a situation, sometimes playing along, sometimes making it angry, to see how it responds and thereby learn about it. It's important to learn about a thing to decide how to respond to it but at the same time the danger is to be perceived as either agreeing or being thrown up as a negative example. So, when you get snarky, he can simply say, "Well, and you see how they are!" <br /><br />When dealing with trolls, it's easy to forget that our need to respond is based more on fear than confidence. The troll takes grains of truth and posts them in the most negative way possible and, because there is an element of truth, causes us to fear that the troll will have real influence over others. We feel the need to respond because we want to prevent that from happening. In a way, we are intimidated by the troll's message - knowing that it will be difficult if not impossible to win a victory over their message that's based on facts, which the troll already has mischaracterized, or logic, which is a game the troll won't play. By engaging with them, we play the game their way and let them have all the advantages. We yield the battlefield to the troll. <br /><br />A better way to combat the troll is by NOT engaging with them in reaction to their message but to proactively engage the public with OUR message - on our terms. This is what the USAF doesn't say in their chart.. it's not just monitoring, it's also all their other positive marketing that's carrying their message to the world. <br /><br />Dan is most attractive to those who already have a tendency to believe his message and are looking for justification. It's just fact that you have folks in your congregation who are unhappy with the ELCA, for whatever reason, and want an excuse to leave. For those folks, Dan's message may be appealing. But, you have FAR, far, more influence over them than Dan and his website by simply engaging with them personally and by acting in concert with your beliefs. Seeing all that you do and say, if they still aren't on your side, nothing you can do or say to Dan will keep them in your pews. <br /><br />If your people are concerned about Dan's message and may think his 'facts' are true, that would only be because there's some defect in your communication to them. They don't 'get' what the ELCA is really about. That's good news. It means that you have the opportunity to fix things and to correct their perception in your message to them. Engaging the troll doesn't make this happen - it's your message delivered on your terms, without anything to do with him, that's the answer. <br /><br />So, conclusion is, Dan isn't worth the time to worry about. Knowing about him is enough. If you have folks that can be influenced by his message and don't respond to yours, there's probably nothing you can do. If they're concerned about his message and are willing to address it with you, you might have a chance to correct things. But, either way, the number of folks who are at risk of being swayed by his message are small. Until your post, I'd never heard of the guy and probably that's true for the majority of ELCA folks. Most people, seeing his post, will recognize him for what he is, after all, he's not being very subtle about it. Fight your desire to 'feed the trolls', it's unnecessary and only helps them. HoosierPilothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07114046531282526940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-76208455057970368332015-12-26T18:54:28.932-06:002015-12-26T18:54:28.932-06:00Sure, conceit is a sin. But so is bearing false wi...Sure, conceit is a sin. But so is bearing false witness. Both invite "calling out"... However, the later can be much more destructive to the common good than the former. It's why slander can get someone jail time. Sometimes public push back against sin warranted. When it is, the motivation doesn't come from egoism. It comes from selfless love.Larshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030913538329598912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-64131964857973062072015-12-26T18:34:42.716-06:002015-12-26T18:34:42.716-06:00Dialogue really isn't possible... but push bac...Dialogue really isn't possible... but push back is necessary when lies are being spread in the name of Jesus attached to one's own picture. (That's Clint in the photo blessing someone as it appears in Dan's flaming FB messages. I wouldn't lay down if someone were acting that way using my name as an example of apostasy). So Clint is "going public" -- which is the only way to marginalize bullies IMHO. Make Dan own his behavior as publicly as possible -- and at least those who run across Dan's vitriol might also come to know that Dan's views and behavior in general is seriously opposed by some very thoughtful and respectable people who have intimate knowledge of Christianity and the Bible. That is how a "marketplace of ideas" is created. Dan doesn't have a corner on that market.Larshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030913538329598912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-43107270339923716652015-12-26T14:58:28.384-06:002015-12-26T14:58:28.384-06:00Obsessive concern about what others think and say ...Obsessive concern about what others think and say about you is a common symptom of narcissism.CurtisMSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03919117441466549301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-46458992306639964732015-12-26T14:22:00.982-06:002015-12-26T14:22:00.982-06:00The snake behavior has been around since 2004 at l...The snake behavior has been around since 2004 at least. I was in that church as a middle schooler when his wife was leading the youth program (they were only engaged at the time, I believe). <br /><br />Even back then he was sneaking fundamentalist mini-lessons (with the help of his wife) into the otherwise mainline curriculum. Stuff like an anti-evolution lesson that was trying so hard to hide its actual purpose and completely lacking in Biblical content that it was almost completely ineffective and most of us just thought it was weird and ignored it (and yes, I hope he's reading this and knows I had no problems with the theory of evolution when I actually learned it the next year (-:). <br /><br />That's the only one that stuck out in my memory, but there was also anti-abortion material once in a while, the Gresh books were selected for an abstinence unit, and I'm pretty sure he was behind a survey asking us whether we've engaged in various types of sexual acts...and we were 8th graders, some of us didn't even know what the questions meant and felt really uncomfortable. <br /><br />Just a lot of weird, shame-y, "anti" material that lacked Biblical content and felt distinctly different from the normal lessons.<br /><br />My parents were shocked when they left the church over him and one of the pastor's behavior after the 2009 decision (eventually the church was asked to leave the ELCA because of that behavior, it did not become LCMC by the congregation's choice) and I told them about all that.<br /><br />To be clear, the survey didn't seem like it was a predatory thing and I'd never say I got those vibes from him. I'm not one to slander off of deliberately misinterpreting an anecdote (ahem) and I want to make that part absolutely clear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-2448199275160491832015-12-26T13:21:31.200-06:002015-12-26T13:21:31.200-06:00Clint, while I appreciate knowing a bit more about...Clint, while I appreciate knowing a bit more about Mr. Skogan and his blog, I'm reminded of my so many years in politics and all the people I have dealt with over the years. I remember going to rallies in my younger years and being confronted with people who, let's just say they were passionate about an opposing viewpoint. I learned some time ago, that the first thing to do is evaluate the opposing party. Does the person have any legitimacy? If not, don't give them legitimacy by responding to them. That only encourages the person into thinking that what they are doing must be right, or else, why would you respond. Dan has no credibility as far as I can tell based on your post - ie criticizing with out visiting churches, etc. If someone does have legitimacy, then you have a duty to respond. Even if you do respond to someone who has no apparent legitimacy, then I would say the best approach is to show as much kindness as possible, to ask questions for clarification to allow the person to fully express themselves. I have found when this happens, the fallacy of their ways are exposed by their own words and you didn't drop to their level of negativity. In conclusion, I'm reminded by advice my father gave me years ago that has served me well - Don't argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and then beat you from years of experience. All the best. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-80715678203056282932015-12-26T11:12:51.817-06:002015-12-26T11:12:51.817-06:00"I certainly know that it is not easy to deal..."I certainly know that it is not easy to deal with a shameless slanderer and liar, for according to the proverb, 'This I know for sure: if I fight against filth, I shall not remain pure, whether I win or lose.'<br /><br />"But, for the sake of truth, I must endure your excessive and endless slander and blasphemies. If you knew something different perhaps you would write it.<br /><br />"Therefore, I have to be patient and let you carry on as your unrelenting hatred directs you. I, too, have sounded off many times, but for the most part I have written good things without doing so. You, however, can do nothing but curse and slander. Never mind, dear goat. It does not help to look for anything good in you.<br /><br />"Let the will of the Lord be done. Amen"<br /><br />~ Martin Luther to 'Goat' Emser (LW39:114-115)Pr. R Don Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09655746939456861595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-10640799850439699432015-12-26T10:45:27.591-06:002015-12-26T10:45:27.591-06:00I am coming to a place where we do more harm by al...I am coming to a place where we do more harm by allowing the silence to continue saying we're not speaking out of love. Love is not always soft and gentle, and we do need to speak the truth in love, when being silence perpetuates harm. Thank you for the article! <br />Sara SV Bishophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17328122056150267018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-81909620448182597592015-12-26T09:33:10.512-06:002015-12-26T09:33:10.512-06:00I have a great nephew who I sense is trying to cre...I have a great nephew who I sense is trying to create arguments regarding his beliefs (SDA) and mine. I have gone both to his church's website and the ELCA's for quotes, posted them and sometimes don't post anything else. Of course, he tried to accuse me of not studying or researching, so this was my way to show him that I do check out things people say. Even relatives. Thank you for this Clint. Jesus did not always remain silent.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08243823260228823237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-10478510149013414002015-12-26T07:21:47.552-06:002015-12-26T07:21:47.552-06:00You offer a thoughtful, faithful response. And, I ...You offer a thoughtful, faithful response. And, I am so with you on engaging foolishness. You are more progressive than me, and I less progressive than you---be we are pastors & Church both together. And when it it comes to dealing with bullies, I offer you some Brene Brown words that guide in me in such cases, “If you want to make a difference, the next time you see someone being cruel to another human being, take it personally. Take it personally because it is personal!” the Man in Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507604655521279182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-23691787518899848582015-12-25T23:41:22.031-06:002015-12-25T23:41:22.031-06:00We are called to love. However we often find it di...We are called to love. However we often find it difficult to understand that love does not eliminate the possibility of disagreement. We can share God's love with other people, but that does not imply complete agreement with the way they understand or express the way they share their point of view.<br />We need to be willing to share areas with which we are not able to understand or disagree. We need to be very clear in expressing our faith. and our calling as God's servants.<br />Dealing with the way he appears to punish himself and the way he treats others, we need to keep in our prayers.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16649260743091628886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-88957845732545199252015-12-25T23:05:22.752-06:002015-12-25T23:05:22.752-06:00I think you are a good guy for attempting a dialog...I think you are a good guy for attempting a dialogue with this person, but it's ultimately a futile exercise. Your valuable time is best spent elsewhere.C.P.O.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16880429004171251097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-85810558557249960962015-12-25T22:40:16.744-06:002015-12-25T22:40:16.744-06:00Quite a expose' ... blessings and thanks.Quite a expose' ... blessings and thanks.C.B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04475977693446577482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-55523588028684379282015-12-25T21:04:48.230-06:002015-12-25T21:04:48.230-06:00I struggle with how to deal with Dan as well and h...I struggle with how to deal with Dan as well and have had some conversations with him as well as some arguments where I also was less than charitable because he's impossible to convince to have a fair conversation. A couple things come to mind.<br /><br />One: some people are best loved from afar. <br />I do think that not engaging is a valid response, though I tend to be in the camp that is more willing to engage because I can't stand a bully. I see his tactics as bullying and unfair. At the very least, he defies 2 John 4:20 (paraphrased, "if you say you love God but hate your brother or sister then you're a liar"). In his literalism, I'm sure this causes him to quake in his boots (please note sarcasm).<br /><br />Two: Love doesn't mean that we're always nice; sometimes honesty appears to be cruel. <br />What really got Jesus in trouble was his unfailing honesty in the face of a status quo that dictates "go along to get along". Sometimes in order to be loving we have to tell people hard truths, turn over tables in the temple, or take up the cross. <br /><br />This is actually something that makes many congregations suck at dealing with conflict, because people are afraid that if they confront bullies and tell the truth then they'll be perceived as judgmental and mean. This means that congregations can actually enshrine and empower bullies in their system because the chief method of dealing with them is avoidance. When we grant bullies power, we fail to love them. Loving a bully looks like confronting them and speaking the difficult truth that they're not allowed to treat people in this way because it demeans both he one being bullied and also the bully themselves. <br /><br />The loving action is to help bring it to a stop, even if that means kicking a bully out. It's loving because it draws a clear boundary about what's acceptable behavior in our community and calls the bully to account for their actions. Certainly, this will be cast as cruelness, but the congregation will be healthier for it.<br /><br />Finally, in Dan's case, I think we need to remember that this kind of vitriol must be born from a great deal of pain. This is obviously someone who has some pretty deep issues. We have to be careful to limit our attempts at speaking the truth in love to addressing the things that he's doing rather than joining in and becoming bullies ourselves. <br /><br />Dan's a person who God loves; because we seek to love as God loves, we're called to love him too.<br /><br />This is where the rubber meets the road — love means acting; love also means being the grownup in the room and not punishing him any more than he's already punished by cherishing this grudge against the ELCA for so long, lest we join in his idolatry. <br /><br />I guess that's just me saying that I agree that we need to do something in response, but that I also recognize what you do, that we're treading on treacherous territory as we struggle with our own propensity to troll the trolls.<br />Eric the Lutheranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02023289100744533151noreply@blogger.com