tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post3312590325291727757..comments2024-02-19T05:09:00.099-06:00Comments on Lutheran Confessions: Loving the Outsider and Silver BulletsClint Schneklothhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00707900080657719369noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-75525130827280854422011-12-12T05:49:35.569-06:002011-12-12T05:49:35.569-06:00Clint, I most experience the "worship wars&qu...Clint, I most experience the "worship wars" in my own congregation as one set of insiders against another who like/hate liturgy, and who like hymns/like 'songs'. The problem is that there is 'worship evangelism' literature out that that suggests that only praise choruses and no liturgy is welcoming to 'outsiders', whoever we think they are. I also like what you say about not just trying to get people inside, where we are. When the Pat Keifert stuff about "welcoming the stranger" came out, my brain immediately went to the idea that mission isn't just about "welcoming the stranger", but also about "being the stranger." at least, that's what I experienced when I was a missionary.Diane M. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07749136181846671327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-39901333244237559462011-12-08T15:51:24.296-06:002011-12-08T15:51:24.296-06:00Thank you, Roger. Your added nuance is helpful, an...Thank you, Roger. Your added nuance is helpful, and I especially find helpful your references from Hebrews. Those are very appropriate. I recently finished reading a book that argues that Priscilla is the author of Hebrews, so your use of s/he was also fun to see.Clint Schneklothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707900080657719369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-63735299302421904472011-12-08T11:46:05.556-06:002011-12-08T11:46:05.556-06:00Thank you, Clint, for moving the discussion to the...Thank you, Clint, for moving the discussion to the center. Or maybe to the "boundary." Influenced much by Paul Tillich, I have tended to see insider/outsider issues as boundary issues. We discover ourselves essentially within the polarities of individualization/participation, dynamics/form, and freedom/destiny. If we push to any one pole, we lose authenticity. These are the primary polarities for Tillich, but there are many more, e.g., insider/outsider or center/perimeter. Only an insider can go to the outsider. Tim Wengert has written about centripetal worship, worship that throws us to the outside; but worship has to be simultaneously centrifugal. There is no church without the assembly. When we move out of the dialectical tension of insider/outsider losing sight of the center, we become defined by the perimeter. <br /><br />In more theological terms, the church formed by the gospel in the assembly is called, gathered and enlightened and kept in the one true faith forming a center whose very nature is "apostolic." We are a centered (inside) people sent to the edges of creation. God loves God's creation and claims all things in Christ, who is one with the Father, and who propelled by the Spirit goes "outside the gate" to endure suffering in order to make holy all that belongs to God. <br /><br />The Church does not make one journey to the outside. We are constantly driven to the outside by the very act of assembling and forming an inside, a center through the hearing of the word, the washing with the word and the eating and drinking with the word.<br /><br />The writer of Hebrews gets at this when on the one hand s/he writes,<br /><br />"Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another. Hebrews 10:23-25 NRSV)<br /><br />And then on the other hand, s/he writes, <br /><br />"Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood. Let us then go to him outside the camp and bear the abuse he endured. For here we have no lasting city, but we are looking for the city that is to come." (Hebrews 13:12-14 NRSV)<br /><br />If we are going to wager our lives, we should die fighting on the boundary, in the tension of insider/outsider.Robert George Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16858534618438495141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-56038669815177793182011-12-08T10:41:01.481-06:002011-12-08T10:41:01.481-06:00Mike, I agree with you that we probably need to ob...Mike, I agree with you that we probably need to obsessively focus on the outsider to even get to some kind of balanced level. Hence the necessity of stating things in the strong terms in which you stated them. That's a good hunch.<br /><br />As for the "what if they don't come," I'm thinking of something a little bit different, like a dispersed or scattered church. Perhaps they don't need to come. Perhaps we need to go where "they" are. That's the missional insight, in any event. :) <br /><br />Thanks for sparking the dialogue!Clint Schneklothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707900080657719369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-34310885350940505262011-12-08T10:37:56.475-06:002011-12-08T10:37:56.475-06:00Great thoughts, Clint. Thanks.
To answer one que...Great thoughts, Clint. Thanks. <br /><br />To answer one question you raise, no, it wasn't really about worship wars. I just happened to use hymns selection as an example. <br /><br />I agree that we don't forget those inside. My Belief is that couldn't happen. Therefore, focusing obsessively on the outsider might, maybe, almost balance things out. At least that's my hunch. <br /><br />What if they don't come? Then we come at it from a different angle. Once church I served didn't put in wheelchair ramps because, "We don't have any handicapped people." and they never will.Mike Rineharthttp://bishopmike.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-74838658232040809802011-12-08T08:48:13.279-06:002011-12-08T08:48:13.279-06:00Duane, thanks for your articulate and thoughtful r...Duane, thanks for your articulate and thoughtful response. I agree that creating a dichotomy between "outsider" and "insider" leaves little room for imagining a spectrum, which is why I think "centered-set" thinking is more helpful. People find themselves in many different places on this issue, including in the crossfire. <br /><br />I think you make a great point about worship. I myself prefer "blended" styles of worship that incorporate "contemporary" music, ancient chant, etc. Since I like a wide variety of worship music, that just makes sense to me. But I know that many people are very committed to their own style, and so worship services tend to get designed for that style. Your point, though, is that whatever the style, the selections should be easy for the congregation to sing, or there should be some training to help sing them?<br /><br />Again, thanks for reading and responding!Clint Schneklothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707900080657719369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020417.post-24293865247919512792011-12-07T22:38:04.179-06:002011-12-07T22:38:04.179-06:00The blog post was interesting, along with your twe...The blog post was interesting, along with your tweak. <br /><br /> The insider that was drawn in my mind was the one's holding the purse strings over the church leadership. The outsider are the one's we want to come and worship with us so that they too my receive Jesus as their savior, and join us to hear his words on Sundays.<br /><br /> What is the congregation left in the pews that get's caught in the crossfire between the insiders and outsiders called?<br /><br /> As one of the one's caught in the cross fire; I do like the opportunity for change, but sometimes feel that once the change has taken place that a swing backwards would be a change also that might be in need. <br /><br /> The mention about the insiders trying to hold on to a childhood dream perhaps when things were different back then and maybe made a little more sense. Was perhaps more on target then he realized. Feeling the way you did when you sung or heard the familiar sound of the older hymns that made you remember that you are saved can be a warm feeling that can keep you warm for 7 days.<br /><br /> As the topic lead toward the music played during the services along with the flow of worship. The two services that are offered at Good Shepherd fits many of the needs for not only the insiders but the outsiders. BUT, (here it comes) for the one that may be caught in the crossfire to be able to sing along with the worship or hymns we have, it would help if one had a education in the art of music. Some of the hymns are hard to follow along with the flow of the congregations response's during the service are in a hard to follow their musical rhythm, which can turn away one from responding during the service which then leads to the feeling as if one has not partaken in the worship on Sunday.<br /><br /> I appreciate all the time and effort that is put into our music selections; but a little mix might be a welcome tune for some that can't carry a tune. There are some great hymns that no matter how may times they are sang (on key or off) that still move the soul closer to God and leave you wanting more. (just like that one great golf shot or one great strike in bowling which keeps you coming back for more).<br /><br /> Wishing you a great day, and look forward to your sermon on Sunday.Duanenoreply@blogger.com